On Memorial Day, how do you not talk about the Iraq War?

Or perhaps this is the better question: How do you exchange opinions about a war that has created deep divisions within the country, communities and even among friends?

The Enterprise set up a roundtable discussion with four Leelanau County residents last week, each of whom have a connection to the Iraq War.

Our staff was uncertain as to the feelings each would hold toward the war. We hoped to hear an honest discussion with diverse opinions - and that's what occurred.

Cathy Lautner watched her daughter's strong love of country turn into a commitment to join the military. Cathy learned recently that Julie will serve in Iraq.

Jeff Gleason fought in the Persian Gulf War, which he says has changed him.

Robert Maynard is a World War II veteran who describes himself as "gung ho" while in the military. He opposed the Iraq War when it began, and has not changed his mind.

And Del Moore, police chief of Suttons Bay Village, volunteered to serve in the present war as a contracted trainer of the Iraqi police force. His son, Jack, is serving in Iraq as a member of the Army Reserve. He is a military police officer in Baghdad.

We thank all four of the participants. None is the type to stand in front of a crowd to shout out his or her beliefs. We feel honored that they shared strong opinions with us, and hope you as readers share that appreciation.

We asked some specific questions, but generally encouraged the 2-hour discussion to head in its own direction. Following are parts of the conversation, which began with each explaining their backgrounds.

Moore: "I wanted to join the armed forces, but as the only surviving Moore boy, my mother just had a fit over it. So (I) went into law enforcement instead. After more than 30 years in the field, I went overseas to serve in the international police. I was in bed with the military most of that time. I saw several explosions and lost some good friends — both police officers and those in the military. My family and everybody in the community have been supportive since I came back."

Maynard: “We don’t all think alike,” the 87-year-old vet said. He and his wife of 64 years, Betty, are part of a social group of four couples — two Lutheran, two Congregationalists, two Methodist, and two Catholics.

“There are two things we don’t talk about, and one of them is the war. The chemistry (at the gatherings) is just great.”

Maynard, a father of five, grandfather of nine and great-grandfather of seven, spent four years in World War II from just after Pearl Harbor “right through to the end.” During that time he had more than 300 days of actual front line combat within rifle range of the Germans.

"I should have lost my life any number of times … there is no doubt that those experiences changed my life."
Jeff Gleason: "We were in the middle of cherry harvest (in 1990), and the day after harvest I went over to the recruiter’s office and I enlisted in Traverse City."

Gleason said his experience in the Persian Gulf War paled in comparison to those of Maynard’s.

"It only lasted 100 hours with 30 hours of actual combat time. We were lucky; our casualty rates were miraculously low … I had the benefit of huge pubic support when I came home."

He remained in Iraq after the cease-fire for 30 days, blowing up captured Iraqi munitions and tanks.

"If I remember correctly, it was 103 days when we were without hot water. We got one big bowl of water every day, and that was also to wash your uniform in."

Lautner: "Julie wanted to enlist right out of high school. She didn’t even know she would get paid. We went into the recruiter's office and they started talking benefits packages," started Lautner.

But Julie postponed enlisting for two years, attending college in the Upper Peninsula and in Traverse City, before announcing one Sunday evening that she was scheduled to take her entrance physical for the Army the following Wednesday. Her mother was taken aback, but ultimately came around.

"What parent would be excited about their daughter coming home in a body bag? You want her to go and focus on her mission, and know we are 100 percent behind here … She’s the happiest soldier you’ll ever see. In her heart, it’s all about freedom.”

Two weeks ago Julie informed her mother that she would be serving in Iraq next summer.

"She said a part of me is not complete until I do my part. … Julie has a year to mature and get better at what she does. I think it’s cool that she’s willing to make a sacrifice for our freedom … I'm just behind her 200 percent."

Were you in favor of our decision to go to Iraq in 2003, and has your opinion changed?

Moore: ”Yes I was, and I never lost that belief that we should have gone over there.”

Moore related a story about an encounter he had with an Army chaplain while serving in Iraq. “He told me, ‘We are Christians, and we needed to do what is right to help these people. They were suffering under a cruel dictator and mass genocide’.”

Maynard: "I was opposed to entering the war. With my experiences in '42 through '45, I am just anti-war. There is a reason, perhaps, for going to war. But with anything else I am anti-war. I want to make it very clear that I am very supportive of the troops.” he added.

Maynard corresponds via email with officers who are part of the 101st Airborne division, which includes a portion of his World War II outfit.

“We don’t discuss the merits of war … it’s ‘how are things going for you?’ The colonel wrote back, ‘Fortunately, we’ve only lost one person.’

"I can’t really conceive of the situation in Iraq. In my war, there was a line, and that is where we walked. It’s an entirely different situation. I can’t make a comparison."

Lautner: "Had the media done 24-hour coverage in World War II that is happening today, what would have happened then?"

Maynard: "I think of war as a solid line. I think of Iraq and Afghanistan as more police action. There are terrorists, and we know there are terrorist. There will always be terrorists. We call it war, but I don’t think of this as war. Weapons of mass destruction and removal of Saddam aren’t reasons for us to go to war."

Was the invasion of Afghanistan justified?

Maynard: "It was marginal in my thinking. The primary reason to go to war was for our own security, or if someone attacks us. That's pretty old-fashioned, but that's my feeling … It was marginal in my thinking. It should take an awful serious situation to declare war … War doesn’t solve anything.

“I think the current generation many times doesn’t realize the effect war has on families. Particularly on those who don’t come back home. We don’t talk much about the thousand and thousands of lives who have been destroyed; 9-11 angered us and we reacted without thinking.”

Gleason: “When I was in Iraq and we were getting on the plane (to come home), there was no doubt in anybody’s mind we’d be going back.”

While in Iraq he was detached with an explosive ordinance detonation unit and witness first-hand weapons of mass destruction: rockets with warheads labeled in Russian code as nerve gas.

“We felt, that since Saddam was still in power, that we would be back.” He also believes such weapons were in Iraq at the start of the war, and are likely still there.

Lautner: "I think the media hasn’t been totally up front … I think (WMDs) are still there. They are a huge threat to us.

"I think the war started when 3,000 people died. What do we do, sit back and take it? I don’t want to have to answer to al-Qaida folks. I want to be able to go to the grocery store where and when I want and choose my own church."

She said her daughter is not a "war monger," but rather someone who is on a mission for her nation.
"It’s ugly. But as I see it, our military is voluntary. They stepped up to the plate knowing it was their job."

How did the war change you?

Moore: "They (soldiers and American personnel in Iraq) went through some really tough times over there. I have a newfound respect for our veterans …. I came back and my wife said not good, not bad, just different."

Gleason: I'm terrible at remembering first names, but I can recall everything about the six I served with in Iraq. I know their full names, their hometowns the brand of cigarette they smoke; what food they like to eat. …

"I've lost the capacity to be shocked or surprised by anything. Some people tell me it's a good thing … Typically veterans have gotten very little support from the government after the war."

Do anti-war demonstrations in the United States and eroded support among our elected leaders have a negative impact on the war effort?

Moore: "It can send a mixed signal. When I saw a demonstration on TV (while in Iraq), it sent mixed signals to the insurgents and the terrorists. It helps their resolve to be more patient. They have satellite TV and they have communication. They can just go back in a hole and wait us out.

"I respect other people's opinions, and we have freedom of speech. But I think it sends a mixed signal."

Maynard: "The idea you can’t oppose the administration and support the troops … Well, I don't believe in that at all. I was opposed to Vietnam and had two sons and two sons-in-law fighting there.

"I am not the kind to protest and carry signs. I'm opposed to this war … In my mind we’ve elected a president and representatives, we’ve still got to support them. It was a very poor decision on their part (to go to war). We elected them, but I’m opposed to the direction they’ve taken.

"You can’t force democracy on anybody. I think this is a fatal flaw of our administration. I think democracy comes from within. Our own history was the same way. We Americans were the insurgents. The British were here and we opposed them."

When will and should the Iraq War end?

Moore: “The Iraqis will tell you they are the center of civilization. Our perception of democracy, all we can do is show them how democracy works. They will mold it, massage it and manipulate it into what they feel democracy is. Some parts are easily grasped; others aren't. It will take time. They are a fledgling nation.

"We need to hand them more and more responsibility now. With that responsibility, when it comes time to go, they will have a model to go with. I don’t pretend that it will be a model of ours.

"We need to be supportive with the mission at hand, and we need to hand over more and more to them."
"I don’t think it's going to be a democracy, as we know it. I think it will be somewhere between a theocracy and a democracy.

Lautner: "Will there ever be an end, because they have been a dictatorship so long? Can it end?"

Moore: Part of the problem, Moore said, is that the Iraqi people are being asked to fairly divide their country's vast natural resources among its well established ethnic groups. "It's not just a barren sand box. They have resources depending on the region you go to."

Gleason: "Everybody is tired of this war. Everybody is tired of every war that is started. In my opinion, our mission is done over there. Those Iraqis are smart people. As far as I’m concerned, they have their freedom. I think it’s time to bring the troops home as we hand over more and more responsibility to the Iraqis."

Maynard: "I supported the first bill passed by Congress to start bringing troops home in August, and to bring the rest home in a year. I was hoping the president would support that. He does not want a timetable."

Lautner: "I equate it with being a parent. You give your kids the tools, and let them go. But like with your kids, sometimes you have to tell them it's their responsibility…"

Moore: "I think the president on down to the junior congressmen want peace … Sure there are some Iraqis who soon forget what it was like under a dictatorship. They've had to endure, too. When I think about Iraq, the first thing I think about is the children. To see what they have to see, and go through, I'm still committed."

Are average Iraqis supportive of us?

Moore: "I think the Iraqi people are predominately supportive. They are patient, but they are ready, too, to resume control of their own country. If we shut the light off and walked out of there tomorrow, I would be concerned because all the sweat and blood we put in over there would be for naught. And I don't say that lightly, because my son is over there.

"The media doesn't show the military working with the public or interacting with the kids or helping the Iraqis who were hurt by the bombing. But they are quick to seize on a catastrophic event.

"I oversaw 2,700 detectives over there. The whole city of Baghdad. You never knew for sure if anyone you met that day was a friend or a foe. You don't know for sure. So that was a really tough nut to crack … All but one broadcast I've seen was made behind the "Green Zone." These reporters can't get out to the station houses and the battles going on to see the positive, progressive side. Where as I did see the positive, progressive results of people taking control of their country."

Lautner: "I think it was what my daughter said. She said I just want people to know that what we're doing allows Americans to have their freedom to express opinions, and we want to protect that.”

Maynard: I think we in the older generation soften up a bit. I can remember I was very gung-ho during the war. I can remember when the Armistice was declared on May 8 in Europe, and I was ready to go to the Pacific. We were married at the time, and my wife asked me, ‘what are you thinking?'

"I was gung-ho when I was in the service, but I’m not gung ho right now."

Moore: I've had several offers to go back again as an international police officer, and there is a part of me that wants to because the very simplest things I would do as a police officer there would affect peoples lives. And there are certain things that I don't want to go there and be exposed to. You live with the sights, the sounds, the smells for the rest of your life.

"I'm a patriot. And my firm belief is that we have kept the insurgents and the terrorists in a somewhat unstable base by doing the things our government has done so far."

Gleason: "My feelings are that those people who are over there now are all volunteers. They have my utmost respect, because I have had to see and do some of the things they are doing. I offer my thanks. It certainly wasn’t for money that they went over. It certainly wasn't for glory. It certainly wasn't because Iraq is a nice vacation spot. You (Moore) saw an opportunity to help out, and you did. That's what makes this country great."

Maynard: "With the direction that our country has been taking in the last few years, there is no question there are terrorists out there, and they are going to stay there. We are not going to subdue the terrorists. We have succeeded, I think, in alienating many people in the world. The administration seems to want to control things in other countries I would go so far to say we believe only we can have weapons of mass destruction. Has it every occurred to any of us that the path we have chosen in the past few years has been more destructive to the United States in terms of the toll of human life than what the terrorists would have done? I think we are paying very dearly for the mistakes we have made, and it will follow us for many years."